SUPPLY

SUPPLY

Postby Steve Sill » Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:13 pm

I took the liberty of moving Ben's post on Supply to this thread. I'll post my own outline in another post here, not because it is any better, it is just a little different.

Each formation is assigned to a certain supply source, which can be changed if desired by the player. The system won't automate this. The procedure for resupply is as follows.

1. Each supply source generates a quantity of supplies (set by the designer)
2. Each unit sends a request to its supply source for however much supply it feels it needs (probably not a very complex calculation)
3. Each supply source processes the requests and compares it to on-hand supply. If the total requested exceeds the on-hand supply, it pro-rates all the requests accordingly, i.e. if 2,000 tons are requested and 1,000 tons are on hand, everyone gets half what they asked for (so far this is more or less how replacements work).
4. These pro-rated requests are then fed back to the transport network to check for available capacity. If a route if full, other very similar routes are checked, but if these are full too then the requests keep building up on these same routes. Requests sent down overloaded routes are pro-rated in the same way as in step 2.
5. Each supply source is depleted according to the remaining total of requests. Note that supply will tend to build up at source if some part of the network is overloaded. This will only get worse as these units request more and more supply but only so much can be delivered.
6. The cost of transporting supplies is deducted from each supply delivery.
7. The balance of Supply is delivered to units.

The simple version of this sends supply instantly to all units from the source each turn. The other option would be to allow the user to set up supply depots on the map which function both as units and as supply sources in the above model- passing on the requests from the units assigned to them to the "parent" source (note that this means there will be a one turn delay in supply actually reaching the units when the depot is first set up). The designer would then set a maximum distance that supply can travel before a unit is considered to be overextended, obliging the player to set up these depots. The player also has the option to use these depots to accumulate supply at an intermediate point (perhaps before a choke point in the transport network) rather than at the source, or to divert supply to an alternate, longer route when the main route is overloaded. Perhaps the player can even set depots and sources to hold back a certain amount of supply regardless of what requests it receives- but stuff like this would not be essential for normal play.

There'd be a map overlay where hexes with overloaded transport routes are highlighted in red. The unit report would show for the most recent turn:
1. Supply requested
2. Supply granted (after pro-rating for availability)
3. Supply sent (after pro-rating for transport capacity)
4. Supply received (after deducting transport costs)
This would let the player figure out why 1. Panzer doesn't get any supply even though there's loads in the depot

Obviously this could be extended to multiple types of supply; I think that would be fairly trivial compared to setting up the above in the first instance.
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Re: SUPPLY

Postby Steve Sill » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:45 am

Are we intending to use some sort of Combat Round System similar to TOAW, or maybe an old school Combat/Exploitation System, or perhaps something else ? [I'm writing my Supply novel and it makes a difference to Supply Allocation]

I'm using a Player Controlled System, and that allows great flexibility, but it can't be allowed all the time otherwise the player would have an unfair advantage. So if we use a Round System, I can restrict it to Round One, but if we use something else, I need to come up with a Turn System.
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Re: SUPPLY

Postby Ben Turner » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:50 am

From the other thread, Colin wrote:

The only thing that comes to mind immediately is that one would want the 'cost' of delivering supplies to be subject to manipulation. For example, I believe the onset of first mud, and then snow and severe cold severely affected the German ability to deliver supplies to the front in the winter of 1941-1942.


I think this would be a variability in the capacity of the roads. One presumably doesn't use that much more fuel to drive 100km, but much less supply can get through- irrespective of how much is sitting in the stockpile.
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Re: SUPPLY

Postby Colin Wright » Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:33 am

Ben Turner wrote:From the other thread, Colin wrote:

The only thing that comes to mind immediately is that one would want the 'cost' of delivering supplies to be subject to manipulation. For example, I believe the onset of first mud, and then snow and severe cold severely affected the German ability to deliver supplies to the front in the winter of 1941-1942.


I think this would be a variability in the capacity of the roads. One presumably doesn't use that much more fuel to drive 100km, but much less supply can get through- irrespective of how much is sitting in the stockpile.


Well, one does use a lot more fuel -- but you're right -- the central problem is that less gets through.

Instead of three trucks making three eight hour trips in 24 hours equals nine truckloads, two trucks make one trip in 24 hours and the transmission goes out in the third equals two truckloads.
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Re: SUPPLY

Postby Steve Sill » Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:07 pm

2. Each unit sends a request to its supply source for however much supply it feels it needs

I guess that ideally this would go by the equipment in the unit. But then somebody would have to go thru every piece of equipment and come up with how much supply is needed for that equipment per day.

It would be much easier to make the determination by unit size, but this would certainly be a great generalization. I can see people crying foul over different equipments in the same size unit using the same supply amount. But can't we pass that off on the scenario designer? I often like to say 'If you don't want it that way, then don't make it that way'.

As I struggle thru attempting to type up an outline, I definitely see the wisdom of Colin's statement that we need something in a game to play with before we can really determine how it all shakes out. So I am thinking of trying to keep the initial idea as simple as possible, while leaving the ability to expand the complexity.
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Re: SUPPLY

Postby Colin Wright » Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:23 pm

Steve Sill wrote:
2. Each unit sends a request to its supply source for however much supply it feels it needs

I guess that ideally this would go by the equipment in the unit. But then somebody would have to go thru every piece of equipment and come up with how much supply is needed for that equipment per day.

It would be much easier to make the determination by unit size, but this would certainly be a great generalization. I can see people crying foul over different equipments in the same size unit using the same supply amount. But can't we pass that off on the scenario designer? I often like to say 'If you don't want it that way, then don't make it that way'.

As I struggle thru attempting to type up an outline, I definitely see the wisdom of Colin's statement that we need something in a game to play with before we can really determine how it all shakes out. So I am thinking of trying to keep the initial idea as simple as possible, while leaving the ability to expand the complexity.


It would have to be at least by unit icon. 'Weapons' consume wildly different tonnages of supply, depending on their type. Here, one could usefully look up the 'combat load' standards for various calibers of artillery, but just to try to illustrate my point, let's consider the quantity of supplies various weapons might use in a day of combat: a rifle squad, a 75 mm AT gun, a 150 mm howitzer, and a 210 mm Nebelwerfer. All figures are pure guesses, and only intended to convey my point.

Rifle squad: 200 lbs.

75 mm AT gun 1000 lbs

150 mm howitzer: 10,000 pounds

Nebelwerfer: 50,000 pounds.

Obviously, one cannot simply go by unit size. Personally, I think we should add categories for 'combat load' and 'fuel consumption,' go through the list, and assign figures for each weapon type. It'd be a project, but not impossible.

Then, when, say, 6. Armee is surrounded at Stalingrad, the infantry still has ammo, but the artillery has to sit in mobile deployment most of the time, because it will promptly burn all the supply available if it fires. Should 6.Armee breakout, all the trucks and everything requiring a truck will have to be abandoned, since absent fuel, the computer treats it all as 'fixed equipment,' and will ask if you want to abandon it.
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Re: SUPPLY

Postby Steve Sill » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:30 am

Just a start, nothing complete, still working on it. Also have to add in Attachments and Subordination.

SUPPLY
[Note that this first section is a description of how the 'V for Victory' system works. This is very similar to TOAW in that the lower the supply the lower the unit performance, and the higher the supply the higher the unit performance. V4V does this in steps, TOAW does this on a curve. We don't really need all of the categories listed below, but I think we will need some sort of color coded system to assist when assigning supply tonnages to Supply Units each turn. This is a question that can be tackled when the UI is designed].
Supply quantities are measured in Tons. Tonnage numbers are assigned by the Scenario Designer representing ammunition, food and fuel, etc., and represent a realistic accounting of supply allocation and expenditure. Tonnage numbers are also used to determine which of the five possible Supply States each unit is in: Attack, General, Defensive, Minimal, and No Supply.
Attack Supply [Green] – represents the more than normal delivery of supply that is usually associated with the build-up of supplies in anticipation of an attack. Units in Attack Supply have their Strengths increased by 50%, and their Morale is increased by ??.
General Supply [Blue] - represents the normal delivery of supply. Units in General Supply have unaltered Strength and Morale.
Defensive Supply [Orange] - represents a less than normal delivery of supply. Units in Defensive Supply have their Attack Strengths halved while their Defensive Strengths remain normal. Motorized units have their Movement Allowances halved.
Minimal Supply [Red} – Units in Minimal Supply are not receiving what they need, therefore their Attack Strengths are quartered and their Defensive Strengths are halved. Motorized units have their Movement Allowances reduced to 1/3 of normal.
No Supply [Black] - Units in No Supply have their Attack Strengths quartered, Defensive Strengths are halved, and their Morale is decreased by ??. Motorized units have their Movement Allowances quartered. Units that remain in a state of No Supply will eventually surrender.
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Re: SUPPLY

Postby Steve Sill » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:31 am

Supply Delivery
Supply originates at Supply Point locations, as determined by the Scenario Designer. The Scenario Designer sets the amount [in Tons] of supply that is delivered each turn, and this amount is delivered automatically at the beginning of each turn or at turn intervals which can also set by the Scenario Designer.
Supplies flow from Supply Point locations to the highest level Supply Dump unit, then on to the next level Supply Dump in the scenario's hierarchy. See Supply Figure 1 below. In this example, supply originates from the Supply Point located next to the '3000 Tons' label. This 3000 Tons is the quantity set by the Scenario Designer to be delivered each turn. This quantity may be changed by Event [therefore, this amount will vary from scenario to scenario, and sometimes within a scenario].
The hierarchy is determined by the size of the Supply Unit. The 'Quartermaster General' unit is the highest level Supply Dump unit in the pictured example, followed by the 'OKH' and 'OKW' Supply Dumps [which are equal 'Theater' Supply Dumps], and each of those is followed by two equal 'Army' Supply Dumps. Therefore, at the beginning of the turn, the Quartermaster General is issued 3000 tons of supplies, and this is distributed equally to the Theater Supply Dumps [at 1500 tons each] and from there 750 tons is distributed to each of the Army Supply Dumps.
The hierarchy pictured is just an example, any number of various configurations can be used. There need only be one Supply Unit and if there is only one then every unit would draw supply from it. Or there could be many Company Supply Units drawing from a Battalion Supply Unit, and in turn many Battalion Supply Units drawing from many Regiment Supply Units, etc. In the example below, the hierarchy tree could be continued by adding Corps Supply Units below the Army Supply Units, or the Scenario Designer could add several divisions directly to the Army Supply Units.
Supply Delivery between each Supply Unit, and between Supply Units and the units that are attached to them can be affected by distance, terrain, weather and enemy interdiction.
Attachments
SupFig1.jpg
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Re: SUPPLY

Postby Steve Sill » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:31 am

Supply Use
It seems that it would be best to determine the amount of supplies used during a turn by each unit based on the type and amount of equipment in each unit. However, in order to keep things simple lets use the TOAW method of units expending an equal amount of supply for each action a unit performs.
It is possible that each unit should pay a 'maintenance fee' for basic survival each turn.
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Re: SUPPLY

Postby Colin Wright » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:07 pm

Steve Sill wrote:Just a start, nothing complete, still working on it. Also have to add in Attachments and Subordination.

SUPPLY
[Note that this first section is a description of how the 'V for Victory' system works. This is very similar to TOAW in that the lower the supply the lower the unit performance, and the higher the supply the higher the unit performance. V4V does this in steps, TOAW does this on a curve. We don't really need all of the categories listed below, but I think we will need some sort of color coded system to assist when assigning supply tonnages to Supply Units each turn. This is a question that can be tackled when the UI is designed].
Supply quantities are measured in Tons. Tonnage numbers are assigned by the Scenario Designer representing ammunition, food and fuel, etc., and represent a realistic accounting of supply allocation and expenditure. Tonnage numbers are also used to determine which of the five possible Supply States each unit is in: Attack, General, Defensive, Minimal, and No Supply.
Attack Supply [Green] – represents the more than normal delivery of supply that is usually associated with the build-up of supplies in anticipation of an attack. Units in Attack Supply have their Strengths increased by 50%, and their Morale is increased by ??.
General Supply [Blue] - represents the normal delivery of supply. Units in General Supply have unaltered Strength and Morale.
Defensive Supply [Orange] - represents a less than normal delivery of supply. Units in Defensive Supply have their Attack Strengths halved while their Defensive Strengths remain normal. Motorized units have their Movement Allowances halved.
Minimal Supply [Red} – Units in Minimal Supply are not receiving what they need, therefore their Attack Strengths are quartered and their Defensive Strengths are halved. Motorized units have their Movement Allowances reduced to 1/3 of normal.
No Supply [Black] - Units in No Supply have their Attack Strengths quartered, Defensive Strengths are halved, and their Morale is decreased by ??. Motorized units have their Movement Allowances quartered. Units that remain in a state of No Supply will eventually surrender.


The immediate problem I have with the above is that a good deal of the reason for a volume-based supply system in the first place is to reflect the differing impact of supply on different weapons systems -- and the above appears to treat all weapons systems indifferently (there's an allowance for motorized units being slowed more than others, but apparently tanks without gas can still move -- just more slowly).

This isn't remotely accurate. Infantry retains some ability to defend itself and even some ability to attack with even the most meager supply: five pounds a man equals fifty rounds for his rifle. Artillery, on the other hand, simply becomes virtually useless once the shells run out -- and shells weigh a lot. If, say, a 15 cm howitzer is going to do much for you, it's going to need to fire off ten rounds -- and those ten rounds come to a good six hundred pounds right there. You'll need to bring in a ton of supply just to make one battery able to make itself useful for ten minutes. That same ton will keep an infantry company militarily useful for two days.
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